From: co-westminster@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:34 AM To: co-westminster@yahoogroups.com Subject: [co-westminster] Digest Number 110 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/x.VolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> -To unsubscribe via e-mail, send an empty e-mail to: co-westminster-unsubscribe@egroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are 7 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. From: "jim_mccscs" 2. RE: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. From: "J.H.Lewis" 3. Re: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. From: Randy Block 4. Re: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. From: "Dr. Chuck Baynard" 5. Re: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. From: "Dr. Chuck Baynard" 6. Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. From: "Richard Bacon" 7. Battles' outline of I.i.1 From: "Richard Bacon" ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:42:58 -0000 From: "jim_mccscs" Subject: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. > • Do you think Calvin's approach to apologetics in this first > section is a reasonable one? Should one always begin with Scripture > or is it feasible to begin with self-knowledge? Just a comment on this one - I was talking to someone the other day, and we got to talking about the nature of man. She said man is essentially good, whereupon I went on to explain what the T in TULIP stands for! :-) I think in some cases it may be a must to start with self-knowledge. If you are unaware, or unwilling to admit, that there is in fact a "problem" with mankind, then you will be unable to truly know God...and you won't see the desperate need either. Just some comments... I'd love to hear any responses. Take care, Jim Witteveen Abbotsford, B.C. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:41:35 -0800 From: "J.H.Lewis" Subject: RE: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. Jim, For someone to know that they are totally depraved they will first need to see their face in the mirror of God's Word. "Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet"(Romans 7:7). Seeing man as "essentially good" is a result of a incorrect view of the Word. Therefore, self might be the subject of apologetics (at times), but the object must always be Scripture. Any thoughts? Kind regards, Jerrold Lewis -----Original Message----- From: jim_mccscs [mailto:jimwitt@dowco.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:43 AM To: co-westminster@yahoogroups.com Subject: [co-westminster] Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. > • Do you think Calvin's approach to apologetics in this first > section is a reasonable one? Should one always begin with Scripture > or is it feasible to begin with self-knowledge? Just a comment on this one - I was talking to someone the other day, and we got to talking about the nature of man. She said man is essentially good, whereupon I went on to explain what the T in TULIP stands for! :-) I think in some cases it may be a must to start with self-knowledge. If you are unaware, or unwilling to admit, that there is in fact a "problem" with mankind, then you will be unable to truly know God...and you won't see the desperate need either. Just some comments... I'd love to hear any responses. Take care, Jim Witteveen Abbotsford, B.C. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -To unsubscribe via e-mail, send an empty e-mail to: co-westminster-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:22:40 -0500 (EST) From: Randy Block Subject: Re: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. >>>I think in some cases it may be a must to start with self-knowledge. If you are unaware, or unwilling to admit, that there is in fact a "problem" with mankind, then you will be unable to truly know God...and you won't see the desperate need either. Just some comments... I'd love to hear any responses.<<< Hi Jim I was thinking along the same lines myself. But I think the point that Calvin is making is that self knowledge is deceiving. The tendancy is to think of ourselves as greater than we are. And until we see God's knowledge we will never see a true picture of self knowledge. randy --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:40:23 -0500 From: "Dr. Chuck Baynard" Subject: Re: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. Do we think Calvin was dealing with this level of "law" in the knowledge of God and man in the opening passages? While sin has been properly identified from the Bible as transgression of the law, is not Calvin at this point dealing with "natural" law? Thus even the proverbial native at the end of the earth will reach these conclusions? Chuck Baynard, LLD, ThD 1st EPC Clover, SC www.cloverepc.org Church -- check out our new Bible lessons www.christianobserver.org The Christian observer ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.H.Lewis" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: RE: [co-westminster] Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. Jim, For someone to know that they are totally depraved they will first need to see their face in the mirror of God's Word. "Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet"(Romans 7:7). Seeing man as "essentially good" is a result of a incorrect view of the Word. Therefore, self might be the subject of apologetics (at times), but the object must always be Scripture. Any thoughts? Kind regards, Jerrold Lewis -----Original Message----- From: jim_mccscs [mailto:jimwitt@dowco.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:43 AM To: co-westminster@yahoogroups.com Subject: [co-westminster] Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. > . Do you think Calvin's approach to apologetics in this first > section is a reasonable one? Should one always begin with Scripture > or is it feasible to begin with self-knowledge? Just a comment on this one - I was talking to someone the other day, and we got to talking about the nature of man. She said man is essentially good, whereupon I went on to explain what the T in TULIP stands for! :-) I think in some cases it may be a must to start with self-knowledge. If you are unaware, or unwilling to admit, that there is in fact a "problem" with mankind, then you will be unable to truly know God...and you won't see the desperate need either. Just some comments... I'd love to hear any responses. Take care, Jim Witteveen Abbotsford, B.C. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -To unsubscribe via e-mail, send an empty e-mail to: co-westminster-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -To unsubscribe via e-mail, send an empty e-mail to: co-westminster-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:45:51 -0500 From: "Dr. Chuck Baynard" Subject: Re: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. I think we are ahead of Calvin here??? I read these opening statements as being more in line with Romans 1 and not the revealed word or law involved. While I think we are all in agreement natural light will not work salvation, it will reveal God and man makes a conscious effort to deny God from nature alone. Denial of the natural light will not of necessity be removed by application of the revealed light, because it will still take the supernatural work of the Holy spirit to bring light to God's revealed word. Chuck Baynard, LLD, ThD 1st EPC Clover, SC www.cloverepc.org Church -- check out our new Bible lessons www.christianobserver.org The Christian observer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Block" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:22 PM ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:15:53 -0000 From: "Richard Bacon" Subject: Re: Questions for Book One, chapter one, section one. --- In co-westminster@y..., "Dr. Chuck Baynard" wrote: > I read these opening statements as > being more in line with Romans 1 and not the revealed word or law > involved. I think you are onto something here, Dr. Baynard. It seems that Calvin is stating in this first section, at least, that man knows that there is a God based on the fact that he did not create himself (we do not have the least endowment from ourselves). In Book II, Calvin will proceed to explain that sinful men repress the knowledge of God -- yet we cannot (correctly) deny that it is objectively present. Thus Calvin, "our very being is nothing else than subsistence in God alone." So, it is because we *refuse* (or at least fail) to know ourselves that we can remain "ignorant" (I think Calvin would say "willfully ignorant") of God. So it is that Calvin maintained that every person *upon coming to a knowledge of himself* is led inexorably to some knowledge of God (not redemptive knowledge, of course -- that is Book II). Also, everyone, just a quick reminder. Let's please keep our quoting of previous messages to a minimum. There are a number of folks on this list who receive only the daily digest. When we quote entire messages it makes "digest" something of a misnomer. Richard Bacon Pastor FPCR Rowlett, TX http://www.fpcr.org/bacon.htm ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:21:56 -0000 From: "Richard Bacon" Subject: Battles' outline of I.i.1 Without knowledge of self there is no knowledge of God a. Real wisdom is confined almost entirely to 1. knowledge of God 2. knowledge of self b. Our rich blessings, proceeding from God alone, reveal our own poverty and ruin, which turns us to think of God 1. to seek what we lack 2. to learn humility c. We cannot seriously aspire to knowledge of God until such time as we begin to become displeased with ourselves. Richard Bacon Pastor, FPCR Rowlett, TX http://www.fpcr.org/bacon.htm ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! 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