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Discussion of George Gillespie's Wholesome Severity Reconciled with Christian Liberty
Re: WF: How to respond to GWS posts 
Subject: Re: WF: How to respond to GWS posts
From: "Raymond P. Joseph" 
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:28:22 -0400

Forum:

As I "lurk" on this forum, I am asking again and again this simple
focusing question:  
What and how will these studies contribute to the establishing of
American Christian Civil Government?

That is not a question asked in skepticism, rather a confession of what
focuses my own mind as I survey our ecclesiastical and political and
cultural chaos around us.   This is how I see the significance of our
Covenanter forefathers:  they had much to say to Western society, which
has taken the turn secular-ward in the last 300 years, evidenced by our
own Constitution which in leaving out any mention of God, Christ, the
Law of God, or the Bible, elevates We the People to the position of
supreme lawgivers.

It will be my attempt to extract whatever wisdom is coming from these
studies, to present it in as clear and forthright (and simple?  nothing
is simple, I guess, but at least I can try!) manner, so that it can be
taught and applied in our churches to our congregation, in order that
they can understand it.

To say that much of what Gillespie wrote -- (and other 2nd Reformation
Reformers) -- is obscure to the modern mind is to state the obvious.
It takes scholarship to extract what they were saying, and to distill
it into today's modes of communication, so that the man in the pew can
understand it.

Perhaps a bit of sloganism can help us here.  ("Kingdom Victory" for
example).   "Christian Civil Government" is in itself a slogan of
sorts, which at least focuses the attention of the average Christian on
what is being discussed.   Of course, the immensity of the subject does
not lend itself to being successfully "sloganized".   Nevertheless, we
must try to boil it down to bite sized pieces for our average reformed
Christian to understand and get behind it so that the church can be
revived and reformed in her responsibilities to "make all nations (THIS
nation) My disciples"  -- (Matthew 28:18)

To return to my "focusing question":  How can we build American
Christian Civil Government?   These studies are surely foundationally
necessary.   When Chris Coldwell mentions the works of Junius, that
Gillespie cites them 30 or 40 times, I wonder:  Who was Junius?   What
did he believe about Christian Civil Government?   How did his writings
contribute to the understanding of building a CCG?   And -- how can we
put his thoughts into 20th century English and/or translate them into
bite sized pieces for the education of our reformed and presbyterian
congregations?

That is my focusing question, dealing with Christian Civil Government.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant,
Ray Joseph

PS:  I am not necessarily requesting an extensive response to my post.
Rather, I am simply revealing my own position -- where I am coming from
-- as I "lurk".

======================
At 03:05 PM 5/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Forum:
>
>It has been asked how we are to interact/respond to the GG series of
posts.
>As a suggestion, to evaluate pro or con what Gillespie is advocating, a
>good start would be to address the proofs he gives from the law.  Are
they
>weak? Strong? Confused? Compelling? etc. In post GWS-7 he is arguing from
>the OT law, Deut. 13:6-9, with some other references to Exodus and
>Leviticus.  In post GWS-8 he gives an outline of Piscator's argument from
>Exodus 21-23, and then sums 7 arguments Piscator gives for why the
>"Christian Magistrate is bound to observe these judicial laws of Moses,
>which appoint the punishments of sins against the moral law." Post GWS-9
>Gillespies adds two additional arguments of his own: 1. From the
silence of
>NT repeal of the judicial law, and 2, from the carrying forward of the
>"judicial law for having two or three witnesses in judgment (Deut. 19:15,
>Heb. 10:28).  Here is the pertinent part of the outline from that sent
out
>before the series began; Gillespie is progressing in his "proof" of the
>proposition in this fashion:
>II. Confirming Arguments from scripture
>GWS-7, GWS-8, GWS-9, from the Law
>GWS-10, GWS-11, from Scripture example
>GWS-12, from the NT
>GWS-13, from odious names assigned to heretics [this seems to be an
>argument from good and necessary inference].
> 
>Hope this helps,
>Chris Coldwell
>
>
>
>--
>Westminster mailing list.
>Dick Bacon, Moderator pastor@fpcr.org
>Chris Coldwell, Webmaster naphtali@naphtali.com
>
>